What are your thoughts on European-Style Universal Healthcare?

ElrondtheGrey

There are some attempts going on to introduce a healthcare system akin to European NHS's in the United States, which has been pretty divisive politically. Disregarding Obamacare itself, what are your thoughts on a European-style system in which healthcare is paid through tax dollars instead of private doctor's bills? Leave your reasoning in the comments.

(sorry, I tried to post a poll like this earlier but I accidentally posted it before I had laid out all the options and I couldn't change or delete it)

LibertyNerd25

Mostly for tax-paid healthcare

Health care should be a service accessible by all members of society. We need a universal system in place. Now, the question is how to implement one.

Perhaps we could have basic insurance reform, coupled with universal subsidies and expanded Medicaid. Basically, the Affordable Care Act with a few adjustments to make it truly universal and easy-to-understand.

I like the European Model, though I don't believe that would be politically possible in the United States at present.

Ludoalta95

Strongly for tax-paid healthcare

What do you mean by "European Model"?

I'm assuming you're talking about things like the British NHS: universal public healthcare paid by income tax. Many countries use this model, with variations - in Italy, it's regional taxes that pay the whole thing, for example.

But some countries, like France, don't really have such a system. In practice, it works the same - as a EU citizen, I get free emergency care in France, for example - but in actual fact, it's handled through a state-owned insurance company called "sécurité sociale" (sounds familiar?). Naturally, membership is compulsory, unless for some reason you prefer a more expensive private insurance policy. And the US might slowly drift towards the French model without any major overhauls; as opposed to the huge changes that a transition to the British model would require.

ElrondtheGrey

Strongly for tax-paid healthcare

Ludoalta95 said:

What do you mean by "European Model"?

I'm assuming you're talking about things like the British NHS: universal public healthcare paid by income tax. Many countries use this model, with variations - in Italy, it's regional taxes that pay the whole thing, for example.

But some countries, like France, don't really have such a system. In practice, it works the same - as a EU citizen, I get free emergency care in France, for example - but in actual fact, it's handled through a state-owned insurance company called "sécurité sociale" (sounds familiar?). Naturally, membership is compulsory, unless for some reason you prefer a more expensive private insurance policy. And the US might slowly drift towards the French model without any major overhauls; as opposed to the huge changes that a transition to the British model would require.

Yes, I mean more specifically the British NHS, although as you said, the healthcare models throughout Europe are in practice very similar.

Rollo

Strongly for tax-paid healthcare

LibertyNerd25 said:

Health care should be a service accessible by all members of society. We need a universal system in place. Now, the question is how to implement one.

Perhaps we could have basic insurance reform, coupled with universal subsidies and expanded Medicaid. Basically, the Affordable Care Act with a few adjustments to make it truly universal and easy-to-understand.

Australia's Medicare is funded through a 1.5% flat tax on income. GPs and medical practices then bulk bill Medicare who pays them as a single-payer system. The GP receives A$36.30 from Medicare. If every consultation took half an hour, a GP could make A$2904 a week or $151,524 a year; which is significantly more than double the average wage in Australia. The system is entirely self-funding. I suspect though that in America, HMOs would rather not have patients visit GPs because primary and preventative health care whilst it is more economically efficient to the economy, reduces profits because people are healthier, thus reducing costs.

PresidentJoko

Mostly for tax-paid healthcare

There is no single "European-style system." There are significantly different models existing in various EU member states. For example, Switzerland operates a private insurance system, while the United Kingdom has a famous single-payer health plan.

However, from reading the thread I see you mainly refer to the UK system. It's a noble and efficient end goal in itself, to have every citizen covered under one plan (generally speaking, of course). If there was a specific policy blueprint highlighting how we would pay for it, what benefits it would cover, if we would allow insurance companies as other universal systems do, and it was politically possible, I would happily get behind it.

But until that happens, my support lies with the Affordable Care Act. In a short amount of time, the uninsured rate dropped from 18.6 percent to 11.9 percent. While there are many problems with it (including rising costs, underinsurance, and undesired mandates), it's a pragmatic step in the right direction. In fact, perhaps the GOP ideas of deregulation and patient choice would address these issues. Politics is a complex field.

VoyagerST

Strongly for tax-paid healthcare

Healthcare is a right, not a privilege.

Luke_Earl_Molle

Strongly against tax-paid healthcare

I desire to say that my answer was ruined by the lines in my screen and my lack of thought. I was going for the other end of the spectrum.

Rollo

Strongly for tax-paid healthcare

@Luke_Earl_Molle

On what basis are you strongly against tax-paid healthcare?

Luke_Earl_Molle

Strongly against tax-paid healthcare

Rollo said:

@Luke_Earl_Molle

On what basis are you strongly against tax-paid healthcare?

The basis that there is a big white stipe down my laptop screen and that combined with a complete lack of thought caused me to click the wrong end of the spectrum. I think tax-paid healthcare is brilliant.

Merovius

Strongly for tax-paid healthcare

As others, I believe the question is vastly oversimplified. For example, I lived in Germany, the UK and Switzerland and the systems are each pretty different. I can heartily recommend Healthcare triage on the topic

So, as a European, I'm obviously biased here, but I can tell you, that having the state heavily involved in healthcare is awesome I would be seriously interested though, to hear from someone who *doesn't* think that way, how they react to John's Video about this topic, because he mentions a couple of (in my opinion) *really strong* and clear arguments.

[edit] I actually wanted to refer to this

RialVestro

I personally think that the problem isn't how health care gets paid for. In any system where doctors make money off sick people we're going to get screwed.

The problem is that doctors don't really care about helping patients they care about getting paid. They will off ten recommend treatments that are not really nessicary when safer options are avalible because they cost more and can charge more in the future from the side effects you get later on.

Think about it, if they actually cured anything they'd be eliminating the need for their jobs, no more repeat buisness, no more customers, no more doctors. Their job is to make sure people need them so they can keep getting paid. And they have the highest paying jobs in the country.

When our doctors are motivated by greed rather than helping people no matter how we pay for health care we get screwed. What we really need is a nonprofit system where all the money they make goes into cures so we can eventually eliminate the need to even have doctors. They shouldn't be able to profit from other people suffering.

Corallia

Mostly for tax-paid healthcare

free healthcare will from what i understand give more freedom to the people so that they can take more risks without having to worry about healthcare insurances and becoming locked in one workplace instead of trying to move on to greater things

AikoAtsume

Strongly against tax-paid healthcare

I don't think taxes should apply to healthcare, it makes things too expensive for the mid-lower class

Ellster

Mostly for tax-paid healthcare

RialVestro said:

The problem is that doctors don't really care about helping patients they care about getting paid. They will off ten recommend treatments that are not really nessicary when safer options are avalible because they cost more and can charge more in the future from the side effects you get later on.

As a health care professional and going to be doctor I am kind of insulted by this statement. On the other hand I have personally experienced enough doctors and other kinds of health care professionals where this actually happens and usually, it means that those of us who take their jobs seriously will have to deal with their screw-ups. Like GPs who keep non-discriminantly prescribing antibiotics for everything, creating more drug-resistant bacteria that we have to deal with, mostly making situations worse that are already critical.

And considering that at least here in Germany, but to my knowledge also in a lot of other places, we have a very big lack of all kinds of health care professionals that is only going to get worse with the aging population I would love to have a solution that would eliminate the need for those professions. But especially because modern medicine is so good and people get older, but also live longer with serious conditions, health care costs and the need for well-trained professionals is only going to get worse.

To get back from that tangent: I think tax-paid health-care is a good idea. Yes, that means the working population will have to pay for others who might never be able to work and there is a certain unfairness in that, but it also gives everyone a security.

That being said there is no one size fits all solution. Even within a fully or partially tax-paid system, there can be a lot of differences and I have so far seen non that I fully agree with, only certain advantages and disadvantages in each of them.